A candid conversation with TV's battling blue-collar heroes about Hollywood rats, media madness and their unusual rules for a happy marriage
ROSEANNE: "I tell him he's a boring guy. Once you get past the veneer, he's just a boring husband who just wants to watch sports all the time. And I'm a regular bitchy wife who just wants to go out and do something."
"I wouldn't care if it was the Pope, gay guys, anybody. Doesn't matter. It's inappropriate. I'm not going to let any man, even my rabbi, who's asked, have lunch with my wife. I don't believe in it."
"I'm not Cinderella and I'm not a fucking princess. I'm me and I have a big mouth. I am never going to shut up. I could cause all kinds of trouble every fucking day if I wanted to."
Roseanne Arnold is dressed entirely in black, from her blouse to her cowboy boots. Her mood is dark, too.
"My lines are mean," she complains to one of the writers of her top-rated TV show, Roseanne. "Make them funnier."
"Perhaps you could point out a few of the ones you're talking about," suggests the writer.
"No," says Roseanne. "You figure it out." Then, ever the helpful star, she points to her script. "This line is not funny," she says. She points to another. "This line isn't funny, either." Her voice becomes more agitated as she finds more offenders.
"Not funny," she says, pointing. And then she continues:
"Not funny."
"Not funny."
"Not funny."
"Oh, honey," interrupts Tom Arnold, attempting to bail out the beleaguered writer before Roseanne can dismiss every line in the script. Tom has many roles in Roseanne's life and career--husband, executive producer of Roseanne, star of The Jackie Thomas Show--but none is more important than his role as peacekeeper. His mere presence brings the exchange with the writer to an end. But not before Roseanne gets in the last word.
"Well, it's not funny," she says firmly and walks off.
Life backstage at Roseanne is not always so tense. Although it was once considered the stormiest set in Hollywood, with Roseanne and Tom firing producers and writers with a Steinbrenneresque fervor (Roseanne even fired Tom twice), success has apparently mellowed the controversial couple. Roseanne, their flagship show, dominates the ratings week after week, and the newer The Jackie Thomas Show managed to pull off something of a minor miracle: It made Tom--often derided as Roseanne's Yoko Ono--respectable.
Seldom have two performers traveled farther to get to the top. And perhaps never has such a journey been so well publicized and endlessly analyzed.
The Arnolds met in Minneapolis in 1983, when they were neophyte stand-up comics. He opened her show. They were both overweight, overindulgent products of overcomplicated lives. He had a reputation as an irresponsible wild man with a taste for drugs and alcohol. Roseanne Barr, as she was known then, was a foulmouthed and abrasive comic whose whining housewife humor struck a nerve among dissatisfied women and sympathetic men.
The two quickly became best friends and together they took refuge on the road from their tawdry home lives. Tom had just escaped three years as an Iowa meat-packer; Roseanne doubled as a house-trailer Frau with three kids and a husband who worked for the post office.
"Tom was like the guy me," Roseanne explains. So they dressed alike, heckled each other from offstage, got high together, spent sexless nights in the same hotel room and had more fun than two lower-middle-class couch potatoes thought they should ever be allowed.
And that's before either one of them became famous.
Roseanne hit it big first. After four years of perfecting the wisecracking, gum-chewing Domestic Goddess, she arrived in Los Angeles in 1985 and landed at the Comedy Store.
Within weeks, she had been discovered by The Tonight Show and signed to an HBO deal. Then, in 1988, the producing team behind The Cosby Show made her the star of her own series. It was an immediate ratings success.
Why? Barbara Ehrenreich, writing in The New Republic, called her "the neglected underside of the Eighties. The overside is handled well enough by Candice Bergen and Madonna, who exist to remind us that talented women who work out are bound to become fabulously successful. Roseanne works a whole different beat, portraying the hopeless underclass of the female sex: polyester-clad, overweight occupants of the slow track; fast-food waitresses, factory workers, housewives. But Barr--and this may be her most appealing feature--is never a victim."
Her book, ROSEANNE: My Life as a Woman, became a best-seller. And Roseanne has increasingly become one of the most powerful women in television, prompting TV Guide to call her this generation's Lucille Ball.
Tom's career took a bumpier path. After winning a Twin Cities Laugh Competition, he arrived in Los Angeles from Minneapolis in 1988, trying to build a career in comedy--and to forget such instances as a three-day stay in jail for urinating outside a restaurant. His old road buddy Roseanne took him in, despite the fact that she was still married to (but separated from) her former husband, Bill Pentland.
By then, Roseanne's public troubles had begun. The media took her to task for staff upheavals on Roseanne. There was a palimony suit by her ex-husband and weird, exhibitionist behavior as Roseanne and Tom greeted the world as a couple: They showed off their tattoos in public and mooned people. She fired two managers and filed a lawsuit--since settled--against her former agency, Triad, for mishandling her career. And let's not forget her rendition of the national anthem, which earned her the enmity of President George Bush. She also came out as an incest survivor, causing her parents and siblings to denounce her publicly and leaving some in the media to wonder if Roseanne was telling the truth.
There's more: a flurry of harassment by the tabloids, including stolen love letters and claims of house-trashing; the rediscovery, via tabloid, of the daughter Roseanne gave up for adoption at 18; fistfights with photographers who annoyed them; caustic letters sent to journalists who criticized them; continuing battles with weight and other compulsions; an operation to untie her Fallopian tubes; breast reduction and other plastic surgeries; construction of a 26,000-square-foot house in Iowa--the largest in the state--as their primary residence because, as they like to say, "We hate Hollywood."
But the biggest source of controversy was the relationship between Tom and Roseanne. Tom was well known as a guy whose cocaine binges were so bad he sometimes hallucinated that there were cameras in the walls making a drug-abuse documentary--with him as the star. Her family and soon-to-be-ex-husband called him a homewrecker. Some in Hollywood thought he was a talentless hanger-on, riding on Roseanne's skirttail. Others saw him as a Svengali who took over Roseanne's life and manipulated her into naming him executive producer of her show.
These events and others were fully documented in the tabloids, on talk shows and in the gossip columns. Yet despite the extensive media exposure, the Arnolds still confuse and fascinate people. To find out why, we sent Contributing Editor David Rensin to get the untold story. He met with the couple on and off for nine months at their Brentwood, California home, on the Roseanne set and at their temporary trailer in Iowa, next to the site of their as yet unfinished mansion. Rensin's report:
"The Tom and Roseanne I met were not the Tom and Roseanne the media led me to expect. For all the attention they've received, it seems that everyone wants either to sanitize the Arnolds or to sensationalize trivial aspects of their lives. Roseanne often complains that the press leaves out great chunks of what she says in its reports. One reason they agreed to talk to me at such length was that, for once, they could hold forth uncensored.
"The two seem like a perfect couple. During our sessions, their love was evident and their friendship even more so. Roseanne radiates both vulnerability and self-confidence, while Tom is a mountain of support and patience, even if he can't sit still for more than five seconds.
"The Arnolds are everywhere. Their names are thrust into our collective consciousness constantly. We began by asking them why they get so much attention."
Playboy: There's hardly a day when your name isn't in a magazine, a newspaper or mentioned on TV. How do you explain America's fascination with Roseanne?
Roseanne: It's because I'm so goddamn cool.
Playboy: What's so cool about you?
Roseanne: I'd rather be sorry than safe. I'm interesting because I'm not afraid to think, to make mistakes, to disagree, to stand alone. I'm not going to tell someone I like them if I don't. I can't work with people I don't respect. I'm not afraid to fight.
Playboy: Clearly. You always seem to be involved in a controversy.
Roseanne: Some of my controversies I've chosen, a lot I haven't--they're thrust upon me just because I'm me.
Playboy: What do you mean?
Roseanne: I made up my mind when I got into show business that I was always going to be honest and wouldn't try to hide anything.
Playboy: That's certainly not standard operating procedure in Hollywood.
Roseanne: That's why I like it. Look, I'm a comic. I'm not the fucking president. Everything comics do is to expose hypocrisy and dishonesty, so why wouldn't I be honest, for Christ's sake? Besides, I'm not ashamed of anything I've done or lived through.
Playboy: But don't you sometimes reveal too much?
Roseanne: I still have secrets I haven't told anyone.
Playboy: Hear what?
Roseanne: Stuff about child abuse, for instance. It's never brought up, so I'm going to do it. It's the stuff that's supposed to be silent, and I'm prepared to break all kinds of silences.
Playboy: We'll come to that topic in a while, but----
Tom: If Madonna were in recovery and got to the point where she could talk about that kind of stuff, it would help a lot of people, too. For recovering alcoholics and recovering sex-abuse victims, part of recovery is talking about it.
Playboy: What do you mean "if Madonna were in recovery"? Are you saying she may have incest or abuse issues herself?
Tom: I assume that she's in such a vacuum, as was Elvis Presley with his drug problem. Who's going to get to her to help her?
Playboy: Have you spoken with her about this?
Roseanne: No. As if she'd fucking listen to me. I'd like to talk to her about it because I think she's talented and I think it's sad. She's very vulnerable. Also very intelligent. I don't know if Madonna's problem is incest, but being obsessed with your sexuality is a sign that you've been sexually abused.
Playboy: Really?
Roseanne: Yeah. It's not normal to be only about sex. Anybody who has it as number one is fucked up. You can quote me on that. Her entire art is about that. Maybe when you're an adolescent, sex is really number one. But not when you're an adult, or a parent. Sex isn't gross or dirty or anything like that. I just don't like it when people shove it down our throats like it's supposed to make up for all the other stuff that's been taken away. Madonna talks about how people have sexual hang-ups that she's trying to loosen them from. People are too loose about sex. They feel there's nothing connected to our bodies, our spirits, our minds, our lives about sex. Meanwhile, there's tons of abuse going on. Hardly anything is being done about child sexual abuse and the way it's handled in the courts, in the media, everywhere. That's what I feel I was put on the earth for, and I'm going to do it. And I have been doing it.
Playboy: So it's blowtorch time for child abusers?
Roseanne: A-bomb time.
Playboy: Explain what?
Roseanne: Powerful businessmen, people with power and money. They all protect one another. But we also have power and we're going to do something about it, even if it is just to talk.
Playboy: Let's get back to you. As well-intentioned as you are, won't this subject create more of the controversy some people--including your sister Stephanie--suggest you need?
Roseanne: I'm not addicted to controversy. To hear that pisses me off. I don't like controversy. I didn't think going public about incest and child abuse would be offensive. I thought it would be important. I do it because I have the public's ear. And because people need to listen.
Playboy: But abuse issues are only a fraction of what has kept your name in the headlines.
Roseanne: Well, I didn't think showing my tattoo would be so incredibly shocking, but it turned out to be. And if I knew how people were going to freak when I sang the national anthem, I wouldn't have done it.
Playboy: The latest uproar is over your faxing caustic notes to TV critics who lambasted The Jackie Thomas Show.
Roseanne: I will fax people for the rest of my fucking career and my life. So be watching!
Playboy: Of the three critics you've faxed, your missive to USA Today's Matt Roush was the most controversial because of references to his sexuality. You say the fax was private, but he made it public.
Roseanne: He once reviewed Tom's cable special and said it was the worst thing on TV and that he hated Tom, and that if Tom gets a show he's never going to watch it and that he never watches my show when Tom's on. That isn't a review, that's a personal attack. I personally attacked him so he would know what it felt like. I wrote, "You're in no position to judge anything about heterosexuals."
Playboy: So you're implying----
Roseanne: He absolutely is gay. I could tell by the way he wrote the review. It was heterophobic. It was full of fear and loathing for a heterosexual male. You can read homophobia, you can also read heterophobia. If you're a student of the media, you can tell everything about people--their race, culture, etc.--by the way they write. Writers are so fucking smug they think they're above all the things that make them up, but they're not. They're not godlike, they're human beings, and I get tired of their smugness.
Playboy: Until this latest flurry of media activity, your camp had been calm for about six months. And all of a sudden, just when people were starting to think----
Roseanne: I am never going to be that calm or whatever they think I'm going to turn into. I'm not. If they don't get it by now, it's time to wake up. I'm not Cinderella and I'm not a fucking princess. I'm me and I have a big mouth. I am never going to shut up.
Playboy: So we can always count on your taking offense at something?
Roseanne: Of course. Now you get it. I could cause all kinds of trouble every fucking day if I wanted to. But I don't want to because I want to live my life.
Playboy: You're slowing down?
Roseanne: Yeah. I'm not quite as angry as I was in the past. I'm healthier. But things still tick me off. And pompous assholes tick me off--not that I'm not a pompous asshole in my own right.
Playboy: Don't you ever worry about overexposure?
Roseanne: It's funny, but the more I do, the more people ask me to do. I'm not just a one-note sitcom actor. I'm a performer, a writer, a producer, an actress, a personality, a stand-up comic and a spokeswoman. And I don't mind if people think of me as a fat, jolly housewife, either. That's also part of me. Everything I do has several levels to it because I want as many people as possible to get my work.
Playboy: You realize that some people find you offensive.
Tom: People who get offended by us offended me.
Playboy: What guides you?
Roseanne: My whole career is guided by God, so that's why I don't have to answer to any earthly shit.
Playboy: That explains everything.
Roseanne: I take ultimate responsibility for everything I do. But if I feel that God wants me to do something, I'll do it even if I don't want to.
Playboy: What has God told you to do?
Roseanne: To come out as an incest survivor. I didn't want to do that. It was very painful for me. But I felt God wanted me to blow the lid off it, to make it come into the light because it could save a lot of children.
Playboy: Anything career-wise?
Roseanne: Yeah, all my career is God stuff, too.
Playboy: Let's be crystal clear here, so this doesn't end up on the cover of some tabloid.
Tom: He's right, honey. You have to be very clear on this.
Playboy: Are the two of you believers in reincarnation?
Roseanne: I believe in every religious tenet and more.
Playboy: Principle.
Tom: What about the one that says the more Jews you kill, the more whores you get in heaven?
Playboy: Roseanne, do you hear voices?
Roseanne: [Chuckles] Yeah. "Roseanne, do you think you're Joan of Arc?" Go ahead. Ask me.
Playboy: Roseanne, do you think you're Joan of Arc?
Roseanne: Yes.
Playboy: Perhaps you're speaking metaphorically--a feeling of having been figuratively burned at the stake.
Roseanne: Yes, absolutely.
Playboy: And on that note, isn't it true that statements such as these bring problems on yourself?
Roseanne: That just excuses all the assholes from being assholes, all the sexists from being sexists. I don't like being torn apart in public for no damn good reason when I'm just being myself. My plan has always been to stay two years ahead of the media because that's where the rest of the country is. That way, they can't figure me out, try to squash me and dispose of me. Get it? The media are so unhip they're two years behind. Fortunately, staying two years ahead ain't hard because the media, for the most part, are a bunch of lunkheads.
Playboy: Didn't the media attacks really start when you wanted more control of Roseanne?
Roseanne: Yeah. But it's directly related to the power--their word--that I assumed by firing a male producer. But any thinking person is potentially a threat to the ruling class.
Playboy: On one hand the media want your drawing power, and on the other they're saying, "Don't you know that you being you is offensive?"
Roseanne: We are not Mr. and Mrs. Robert Stack, nor will we ever be.
Playboy: Nonetheless, you're making good use of your success and money. A fancy house. A Bentley in the driveway. The huge spread in Iowa. Jewelry. Your new diner in Eldon, Iowa.
Roseanne: Well, I can buy a whole bunch of shit. It's cool. But our values and political ideals aren't any different. We're still pro-union all the way. Tom used to work in a meat-packing plant. Money and success didn't change nothing except that now we can get in really good restaurants. We don't have to wait in line.
Playboy: Tom, you once said that you two are "America's worst nightmare--white trash with money."
Tom: That really scares people. What are they going to do about us? We're famous, we have a lot of money, what the fuck are they going to do? People can still be rude, but we can do whatever we want. And that's great. Fortunately, we're nice and we don't abuse people.
Playboy: Do you like television?
Roseanne: I am the hugest couch potato. I love TV, watch it all the time. I hate anybody who says "I never watch TV" or "I only watch PBS." That person is a fucking idiot and should be slapped severely because TV is totally where it's at. On the other hand, most people who critique TV, who write about TV, don't like TV--and that's the other fucking funny thing about it. That I, one of the world's biggest couch potatoes, am on TV represents a victory for all couch potatoes, for all people on the other side of the tube. I got through. I made it. My show is exactly the show I wanted to see on TV. The medium is absolutely the fucking message. Fuck film. That's for pretentious, egotistical, elitist assholes.
Playboy: Probably no television series did more to depict the bleakness of the recession. How do you take to the idea that Roseanne played a great part in getting George Bush kicked out of office?
Roseanne: Thanks. I set out to do just that.
Playboy: How do you two feel about George Bush now?
Tom: Let me tell you a story. We had Loretta Lynn on the show earlier this year----
Playboy: How's the show going to change now that Clinton's in?
Tom: The Conners will win the lottery.
Playboy: You went to the inauguration?
Tom: Yeah, we liked it.
Playboy: Have any private moments with the president?
Roseanne: We met him once.
Playboy: What were you thinking when, as a housewife with three kids, you started out to make it as a comic?
Roseanne: When the Eighties started, I thought it was time that a woman spoke as a woman about being a woman. My background was ten years of feminist politics. Reagan was in, I was working in a feminist bookstore in Denver. Budgets were being slashed for women and children. I remember panicking because we knew one homeless person. And things were getting worse. So I decided to get vocal, to go out and start yelling because nothing else had worked. I've always taken up causes. I've always had something to say. I suppose because of my fucking weird life, my family problems and being raised as a Jew in Utah, I've always been very interested in exposing the rotting core of everything. I got disgusted and went through a marching-and-speaking phase. Then I got amused. Then I became a comic.
Playboy: Do you recall the transition that took you from disgusted to amused to the comedy stage?
Roseanne: Just before I was to give a speech at the University of Colorado at Boulder about feminist ethics, using these four-dollar academentia words, I suddenly realized that there was no such thing as feminist ethics because there was no such thing as feminism anywhere in the world.
Playboy: That would probably surprise a lot of feminists.
Roseanne: It's not allowed to exist. It threatens the status quo power structure. It rises up and is squashed, over and over.
Playboy: By status quo, do you mean male status quo?
Roseanne: It's way beyond that because women have bought into it, too, and they profit from it. I don't buy this men against women stuff. The status quo starts with hierarchical thinking. That's the core of everything that's wrong. It comes from the idea that man is above nature. Then it's man above woman--one half of the race serving the other, ad infinitum, in endless subdivisions. That's an ecofeminist viewpoint.
Playboy: Critics have said that you are anti-male.
Roseanne: I don't blame men. That makes me gag. We all did it.
Playboy: So, you had a revelation?
Roseanne: I decided to talk about how things are, not how they should be; to stop dealing with theoretical shit and start telling the truth--a revolutionary act.
Playboy: Why haven't you talked to the media about your feminist background or beliefs before?
Roseanne: I've talked about this stuff to the media for years, but it never gets printed. The media only want to hear about how much I eat because it's threatening to read about a woman who has vision and a fucking brain. That there's a woman as pissed off as I am should be everywhere, not only in Ms. It's simple. I'm just sick of the shit like, "The fat, jolly Roseanne loves to eat her brownies." I would like it for once to be about me as an artist rather than only the sensational aspects of my personal life--which, of course, I don't mind talking about, either. I'd like it to be about my body of work, not just my body. I'll be watching to see how this one comes out.
Playboy: What if, when people read this, they think, This woman is just blowing smoke through her ass. She should go back to being funny.
Roseanne: That's funny. They probably will think that.
Playboy: You once said, "Stand-up was a victory over my whole life." Why?
Roseanne: Comedy is the only chance I have to speak about what it's like being a woman in this culture. I knew at first that everyone would go, "Can you believe the things she says?" One joke was: "Men are here for one reason only: to serve me, to bring back food and build a comfortable hive for me and my larvae, to willingly move on when it's time for a younger drone with more stamina. Oh, call me old-fashioned." That's pretty radical to say your second time on The Tonight Show. Frightening. Threatening.
Playboy: Obviously not that threatening.
Roseanne: I used to be the most foul-mouthed comic. But I figured out how to take a radical thought and make it mainstream through wording and packaging. Instead of espousing political theory, I changed it into women's point-of-view jokes. But it wasn't just role reversal. I didn't want to have a husband named Fang, because that had already been done--and very well. Men became the butt of my jokes, only I tried not to be mean-spirited. I joked about how we women thought instead of how we looked. About our hypocrisy. As for packaging, I used the cover of being everyone's fat mother, fat neighbor. I used a funny voice.
Playboy: A thin, shapely woman couldn't say those things?
Tom: If an insecure man looks at Roseanne, instead of having to deal with who she is, he says, "She's crazy and she's fat." That way he doesn't have to deal with the fact that she's powerful, intelligent and brilliant. Oprah is another great example. Men think, Oh, she's fat. That way it's OK for them to be average. That's how men get by with their pride.
Playboy: Weight has been a constant battle for each of you, but you've both slimmed down.
Tom: We just don't want to get huge.
Playboy: Can America accept a thin Roseanne?
Roseanne: Who gives a shit?
Playboy: OK, we'll move on. From the first season of Roseanne there have been problems with producers and writers. Is the turnover on your show any more unusual than the turnover on other shows?
Roseanne: No. We have a different rule from other shows. We turn over our writers every two years, for the sake of freshness.
Playboy: Do you tell them this?
Tom: Do they know it? Hey, I hire them for one season at a time, then I'll renew them for another season. You know where they go when they move on from our show? They move up a notch and run other shows.
Playboy: Are you angry you've never won an Emmy?
Roseanne: If and when I get one, I already have my speech.
Playboy: What is it?
Roseanne: "Now what the hell am I gonna bitch about?" And then I'm gone. That's all I'm going to say.
Playboy: You once took out an ad in a Hollywood trade paper that read: "Hollywood is a back-stabbing, scum-sucking, small-minded town. But thanks for the money." Do you really believe that?
Roseanne: Yeah. There are plenty of small-minded, judgmental people. And there are great people out here, too.
Playboy: Your opinions on this matter are quite judgmental.
Roseanne: Let's just say there's a limit to my bullshit.
Playboy: Didn't you once say that you expected the writers and producers of Roseanne to kiss your ass?
Roseanne: I said, "Let me just understand something. How come you all are not kissing my ass, since I let you work on my fucking show?" They were really shocked. They thought that I should be kissing their asses because they had given me a television show.
Playboy: Aren't you somewhat grateful?
Roseanne: I was supposed to just show up and do it and be grateful--like Tim Allen, whose Home Improvement show is a total rip-off of my show.
Playboy: Matt Williams, the first Roseanne producer you fired, is running that show.
Roseanne: I wish Matt Williams the very best. We had our big fight over the "Created By" credit, and when he got it, in my mind, he was gone. But just about everything I blamed him for I have since found out was not his fault. He was a victim like me.
Playboy: A victim of what?
Roseanne: My former agents. They sold me down the river. They were supposed to get me my "Created By" credit. Instead, they were so concerned about their packaging deal that they sold me out for shit, which put me head-to-head with Matt in the first place. So he did some desperate things like humiliate me in front of the cast. I don't like him for that, but it don't mean nothing anymore.
Playboy: Have you told Tim Allen any of this?
Roseanne: I told him, "Matt's going to try to get your 'Created By' credit, and it's your act. So you make sure you get the credit." Well, Matt got it and then Tim was all pissed. He got the "Creative Consultant" shit that Matt gave me, too. But Tim said, "I'm not going to fight it because I'm just lucky to be on TV and have my own show." Which is exactly how I didn't think. When I was in Tim's position, I told them I couldn't understand how they were so out of it and arrogant. I wasn't going to be grateful when I was doing all the fucking work.
Playboy: You forced out another producer, Jeff Harris. Then he took out a trade ad that said he was taking a vacation in the relative peace and quiet of Beirut.
Roseanne: And I answered back, "They won't think you're funny in Beirut, either." He tried to fire Tom all the time. His whole life became about firing Tom. Then Tom choked him. It was fun.
Playboy: Did you physically choke him?
Tom: He walked into my office and tried to fire me. Sat down with his big cigar and said, "Well, it's not working out." I go, "Yep, it's not." And then he goes, "So I want you to move on." I go, "What? What are you saying?"
"I want you to clean out your office."
I go, "What?"
"Cease and desist."
Then I lost it on him. "Get the fuck out of here. You're fired, man. I'm going to have your office."
Playboy: Were you married at the time?
Roseanne: We were living together. That's how people are here: Their arrogance blinds them.
Playboy: Now you work together and you go home together.
Tom: We like that a lot.
Playboy: ABC has given you a two-year renewal for $2 million per show. Where does the money go?
Tom: The show's license fee was reported at $2 million.
Playboy: You're well paid. Are you also a good actress?
Roseanne: I'm a great actress.
Playboy: How proud are you of your movie debut in She-Devil?
Roseanne: What a fucking piece of shit, huh? It was a terrible disappointment to me. Imagine, my first movie, with Meryl Streep, Sylvia Miles and Linda Hunt. How much more incredible can you get? I was honored and in awe. But the direction stank. Susan Seidelman the director fucked up my movie career.
Playboy: Did you talk to her about this?
Roseanne: No. She asked me what I was going to do to promote the movie and I said, "I don't know, what are you going to do about my fucking career, which you ruined?" I'm only getting movie offers again now, after two years.
Playboy: What do you think about Howard Stern, who's been making lots of fat jokes at your expense, such as: "Imagine Roseanne naked"?
Tom: Imagine him naked!
Playboy: Let's get back to an earlier subject: incest and child abuse. Some people don't believe your story and think it's another publicity ploy or the work of an unstable mind. Even People ran an article exploring the veracity of your claim.
Roseanne: Like I couldn't think of anything better than to say I'm a survivor of incest. Like I couldn't come up with a better media event than that. Like I don't have enough money or my show isn't number two. What the fuck did I have to gain from that--except for judgmental people going, "Oh, it's another Roseanne thing"? Well, they weren't there. Fuck them. Just fuck them. They really piss me off. People say this stuff about any survivor who comes forward. They try to discredit you. And that's part of the reason why it continues, why it's accepted. To question any victim is hideously immoral.
Playboy: What can be done to improve things?
Roseanne: People are going to have to redefine the term child abuse. People say, "Well, we only spanked her, it wasn't abusive." Well, fuck, that is abusive.
Playboy: Is it true that your child abuse never involved actual sex?
Roseanne: Actual sex? You mean penetration? Well, there's way more to "actual sex" than penetration. Besides, we're not talking about the orifice that was raped, we're talking about the child.
Playboy: In your case, your mom allegedly put soap in your vagina. Your father allegedly fondled his penis, made Peeping Tom photos, chased you with dirty underwear.
Roseanne: The things that my parents did to me are innumerable. What you read is only what I talk about. I'm not going to give child molesters anything to jack off about.
Playboy: There's more?
Roseanne: I'm not going to say anything titillating for anybody. I know how people think. Let me sum up my childhood: When I was two or three years old, I started to walk in front of moving cars. I did that until I was sixteen and got hit by a car. People are going to have to figure out why by themselves.
Playboy: In an issue of TV Guide, your sister Stephanie contended that your sex-abuse charges come from an "over-heated imagination."
Roseanne: I'm staggered and speechless that she, of anyone in the world, would say that.
Playboy: Why?
Roseanne: I know that it happened to Stephanie, too. My parents gave me custody of her when she was seventeen years old. I got her out of their house when she phoned me from her bedroom and told me that Dad had molested her. I said, "You get your ass on a plane." She came to live with me and my three kids. I went into bankruptcy because of that. And my other sister, Geraldine, came out and lived in our basement, too. For five years no one spoke to my parents about it. But my sisters and I talked about it every day for hours and hours.
Playboy: Both Stephanie and Geraldine strongly deny everything you say. In fact, Geraldine has said, "For Roseanne to say she's an incest victim absolves all her acts of the past." What acts?
Roseanne: She means my firing her as my manager. I thought she was there for me because she was my sister. But I think now she was there for a payoff, and obviously that's true. My sister and I were very close, as close as two sisters can be. I supported her for ten years. It's over now. She has to get a job, do some work.
Playboy: Were you an enabler?
Roseanne: Absolutely. We'd sit there together and smoke five packs of cigarettes each. We mostly talked about our childhood and tried to make some sense of it. But both of us had extremely blank memories. And now she talks about me like I was her girlfriend who dumped her. I read one of her quotes that said, "Roseanne made a decision to become Mrs. Tom Arnold, and I was no longer necessary." That sounds like a spurned lover. It's always been a very sick family. It was a sick, sick family from the day I was born. And it still is.
Playboy: How long has it been since you've spoken to them?
Roseanne: Three years.
Playboy: In denying these charges, your family pretty much blames Tom for your estrangement.
Tom: Hey, I tried with them. I was so nice to her parents, her sisters and her brother. I went way out on a limb, trying to develop relationships with them. I said they were great. But they kept doing things that were unforgivable.
Playboy: Did you push them apart?
Tom: It had to be Rosie's decision, particularly to end the business relationship with her sister Geraldine. I was in favor of it, but I never pressured either way. It was Rosie's decision for me to be her manager and the executive producer of Roseanne.
Playboy: Some people claim you took an enfeebled star and brainwashed her.
Tom: I didn't brainwash her. I put a blanket of protection around her that she had never had before. I was totally devoted and still am. That's the way marriages are in Iowa: It's you and your wife and your family, and that's it. I insisted she get in recovery and remain in recovery, do the work, not waiver and not backslide. I was on her ass. As she was on mine to get sober.
Playboy: Why did you trust him?
Roseanne: At that point, I didn't have a choice. But if he hadn't been there I would be dead, because I couldn't function in any fucking way at all. Also, he was right often enough for me to go, "Fuck, he knows what he is talking about." We both have alcoholic personalities, and neither of us trusts anybody.
Playboy: Roseanne, were you ever suicidal?
Roseanne: Me? Yeah, like every second. I felt really bad. I had to go on antidepressants. That's when I started to get back to being OK. It really did save my life. I'm one of those success stories with Prozac. It just made everything bottom out and I could focus. I suppose it was a breakdown. I couldn't remember what day it was or where I was.
Playboy: Did the money and opportunity make it easier for you to marry into this mess?
Tom: Hey, there isn't enough money for a single guy on drugs to say, "Guess what? I'm going to get sober and I'm going to get all this shit." I got into this because I was loved and I loved her, and I wanted a family. I'd take any family, but hers is a great one. And it's turned out to be really rewarding that it was so hard.
Playboy: Rewarding in many ways: your new sitcom, The Jackie Thomas Show, the job producing Roseanne. You don't deny that there is a professional advantage to being with Roseanne?
Tom: Of course. As far as her opening all the doors in my career is concerned, hell yes. I can do anything I want. Any time I come into a professional arrangement, I carry her weight with me. Everybody knows that.
Playboy: They also think that you've achieved what you have only because you're Roseanne's husband.
Tom: It's true. If I didn't know her I wouldn't be on the show. So? What can I say? It's great to work with your family.
Playboy: At one time, Tom didn't get much respect. Now it seems that he's the hip one.
Roseanne: He'd gotten respect for a long time within our community, even though the public wasn't aware of it. The professionals knew he did the work of ten people. Everybody thought I was crazy for dragging my boyfriend everyplace, until they saw his talent.
Playboy: Would The Jackie Thomas Show work if somebody else played Jackie Thomas?
Roseanne: No. He's the only one who can act that big and that dumb.
Playboy: Ever since The Jackie Thomas Show debuted, and despite the big ratings, there's been speculation that it would be canceled. Why?
Tom: The show is in no jeopardy of being canceled. We got picked up for more. They aren't going to cancel my show. I mean, then what? I'm going to take it to CBS or NBC. They can't beat my show. The network has assured me the show will be on next season. We're fine.
Playboy: Let's focus on your relationship. Why is it working?
Tom: Because we work at it real hard. We don't take it for granted.
Playboy: Did you really break the furniture the first time you made love?
Roseanne: We were so scared.
Playboy: What if the sex had been bad?
Roseanne: It wouldn't have mattered.
Playboy: Is there a dark side to all this?
Roseanne: We used to really Sid and Nancy out.
Playboy: Was it love at first sight?
Tom: Yeah, when I look back.
Playboy: What's the first thing you noticed about her?
Tom: She was hilarious. She was tough. We met at a comedy club. I went on first. When she came out, the whole room was mesmerized. I'd never seen anything like it. And offstage she was fun. I could tell that she was sensitive. But what I have always loved about her the most is that I think she always loved me.
Playboy: Is that true?
Roseanne: Uh-huh.
Playboy: How did you feel about this outpouring of love?
Roseanne: At first I couldn't handle it. I'd been sexual with a lot of people, but not actually intimate. He'd say things and I wouldn't talk to him for six months. I'd just lose it and go, Whoa, take a break. Scared the hell out of me.
Playboy: And you were married, too.
Tom: But this went on even after we were married. I was nice to her and she couldn't handle it. It's because of this incest stuff. But I didn't know that at first. She wondered, "Why are you on my side? Why would you be on my side?"
Playboy: Did Roseanne have the same suspicions about you that others had?
Tom: Right. And it took me back to my using and drinking times. I did some things that were not honest.
Playboy: Did anyone suspect?
Roseanne: We never had sex or anything.
Playboy: And now you sound like old marrieds.
Tom: We're basically old-fashioned.
Playboy: Are you jealous?
Roseanne: Yeah. Well, I'm protective.
Playboy: You can't see them alone?
Roseanne: We met Jesse Jackson at Farm Aid. He said he would really love to sit down and talk over lunch. I was really excited. Tom said I couldn't have lunch with him unless I brought him to our house. I said, "You're being ridiculous." Tom said, "If you do, I'll show up and kick his black ass."
Playboy: Care to explain?
Tom: I don't allow my woman to go to lunch with other men.
Playboy: Don't you trust Roseanne?
Tom: I know nothing would happen, but you don't put yourself in slippery situations where something could happen, even if it's not going to happen. If he's gay, I figure she could change him. If he's a rabbi, well, rabbis date. Jesse Jackson, he's a man. I don't approve of it.
Playboy: You're serious?
Tom: I'm a hundred percent serious.
Playboy: Why do you say "black" ass?
Tom: I don't mean to sound racist. I'm not. I'd kick his Jewish ass or his fat ass or whatever kind of ass he has. I would kick it. I just wanted her to know what would happen if she had lunch with him.
Playboy: Good thing she's not having lunch with Sammy Davis Jr.
Tom: I'd kick his dead, black, Jewish ass. Look, in Iowa married women just don't have lunch with men.
Playboy: You're not in Iowa anymore.
Tom: I know. I'll get better.
Playboy: Roseanne, isn't your acquiescence to Tom on this subject contrary to your strong-woman image?
Roseanne: I think about that a lot. Everything I say must be bullshit if he doesn't let me out the door.
Playboy: Are you trying to build trust or is this rampant insecurity speaking?
Tom: Probably both.
Playboy: How about something more pleasant? What sexual fantasy is still unfulfilled?
Roseanne: Mine is that Tom cooks pork and doesn't burn it. [To Tom] Do you have a weird sexual fantasy?
Playboy: These days you're referred to as one entity: Tom and Roseanne. Any desire to have separate identities again?
Tom: We love doing what we do and we'll always be together.
Playboy: You reportedly bristle when someone calls you Roseanne Barr. What does that make you want to do?
Roseanne: Beat the holy fucking shit out of 'em, kick 'em in the nuts or cunt, rip their fucking hair out, throw 'em down a flight of stairs, jump up and down on 'em, tie a rope around their neck and drag 'em down the street, set 'em on fire, throw 'em through a plate-glass window, hit 'em in the fucking head with an ax.
Playboy: At first, your marriage was the butt of jokes. When do you think that perception changed?
Roseanne: As soon as my ex-husband and sister stopped talking to the press. When we had the gag order.
Playboy: What if everything in your life and work were calm?
Roseanne: I wouldn't do confrontational comedy, I'd do something different. But I'd always be creative.
Playboy: You two are trying to have kids, right?
Both: [Smiling] Yeah.
Playboy: How many kids do you want?
Tom: I would like to have four or five, but she says one. And maybe we'll adopt one, too. The biological part is not my main thing. I'm happy being a stepparent, but I would like to be the main guy one way or another. I've never seen men change so much as they do when they become fathers.
Playboy: Any plans for the future?
Tom: We want to be movie stars.
Playboy: Despite your successes, do you still feel like outsiders?
Roseanne: Well, I still feel like a geek from outer space. To everyone and everything.
Playboy: Roseanne, you said that you have been on Prozac, the antidepressant drug, for more than a year. Is it still helping?
Roseanne: I'm more satisfied with the world since I've been on antidepressants. I think that everything you do in--and the way you look at--the world comes from how you feel about yourself I still have the old fire. I just don't have the horrible lows. Well, I kind of have the horrible lows, but not as frequently. Now I freak out only every other day. I'm able to run my personal life a lot better. I could always work but I didn't have a happy personal life and didn't know how to get it. Once, I didn't even know how to live in the world. Now I'm doing pretty good.
Playboy: Are the two of you doing Prozac together?
Roseanne: He should be. But it won't work for him.
